采访：荒木经惟与吉行耕平的对话1979
翻译 | 门房大爷
荒木经惟：我对你不太了解，当然我知道你，然而读者们对你也不太了解。那么你不妨自我介绍一下吧？比如，他们肯定都想知道你出生在哪一年，你多大岁数，你对什么感兴趣，你拍摄什么样的作品？我打赌你不是只有20岁吧。
吉行耕平：我出生于1946年。
荒木：作为一名摄影天才，我很高兴向读者们介绍吉行耕平。通过使用红外胶片，你拍摄了大量的性爱偷窥照片，引起了巨大的轰动。对此，很多人提出批评，但是我的批评是基于这样一条准线的：“这就是我称之为摄影的东西”（大笑）。自那以后，我们有几次见面和交谈，不过我也好久没见过你了。最近我收到了你的个展邀请函。我没去只是因为我太忙了，但是我对Weekend Super杂志的编辑谈及过此事，然后得知他去参观过你的个展。我向他询问，他说他很喜欢展出的方式和效果。
吉行：我把展厅的灯光都关掉了，然后发给每位参观者一个手电筒。这样的方式是重建拍摄场景的效果。同时我把每张照片都放大到真人尺寸。
荒木：你重新营造了原始拍摄场景的效果。我没去展览现场，所以我也没法准确体会你所说的那样的设置。观众们手持手电筒进入到一个黑漆漆的房间然后通过手电筒观看照片？如果是这样的方式，只能看到照片的局部吧。
吉行：是的，那就是我想要实现的参观体验。我想要观众们在观看照片里人们身体的时候一次只能看到一部分。当然这是一种并不太舒服的观看体验。在一个全黑的空间里，照片被照亮，但是是一部分一部分的照亮并被观众看到。我的原创想法就是这样一个通道——当光束投射到照片上形成一个通道。观众们观看的时候是缓慢而仔细的。
荒木：我明白你的意思了。
吉行：他们甚至可以触摸照片。这也是我想要展览实现的效果。但是然后我就意识到了，观众由于我的原因被迫以这样的方式观看照片。所以，那次我就在展览空间中间放置一块板以起到隔离的作用。
荒木：我没看到照片，但是听起来真的有趣呢。我想观众们会看到你所瞄准的东西。但是你的展示方式被过多的关注了。5年前，你曾想以某种方式展出它们，这一想法在你大脑中产生以后直到它变成某种必须实现的冲动。就像你一直想给一个姑娘买一件礼物，然后一旦你有了钱你就决定去办一样。
吉行：对，我觉得你可以那么讲。
荒木：然后你的感觉就是，当那姑娘说“哦不，不会有谁那么做了，”是不是？
吉行：某种程度上。
荒木：这些照片无疑是很棒的，也许你应该以更直接的方式展出它们。对于前来观看的人来说，它们是那么的有力量。你刚才谈及的展出方式让我想起了一种困于糟糕关系中的女人。
吉行：对于观众们观看照片的样子，我真的很享受。手电光线的聚焦也是他们视觉的聚焦，我关注那些完全意外的东西。
荒木：那种东西是不久以前当代艺术中出现的意识流。如果你问我的看法，我倾向于回归以简单的方式展示照片。我会告诉艺术家们回归油画的原始方式，告诉摄影师们回归摄影的原始方式。
吉行：但是你的做法对他们来说已经是一个观念性的指向了。
荒木：是的，但是当你展示你的照片的时候，你必须以最确凿的方式。我听说你拒绝许多邀请。这样不太好。你不去摆出一个自信的姿态来，这样多可耻。
吉行：我是一个胆小鬼。
荒木：胆小鬼不会去到公园里闲逛并且拍下人们性爱的照片来的。你的动机是什么呢？
吉行：我从未想过能拍下那样的照片来。我知道偷窥是什么，虽然有一次我弄出了点乱子——在一个难以置信的场景里（大笑）。那时候我还是个业余爱好者。那时候，在新宿的中央公园前还没有那么多摩天大楼。那里边有一个公寓模型。我正走在我的一个朋友身后（我们刚刚完成拍摄工作后），这时候我们见到了一些令人惊讶的东西！
荒木：“一些东西”，我喜欢你的表述方式。
吉行：是的！我当时错愕了。他们真的在做爱。
荒木：他们真的在干？
吉行：是的。当我看到他们时，我意识到了我必须把他们拍下来。
荒木：你当时没拍？
吉行：我带照相机了，但是那实在太暗了。那以后我开始做了一些研究。我发现东芝生产一种闪光灯——红外线闪光灯。在我打算更多的实践的时候，它们断货了。然后我去寻找滤镜，最后决定使用两个三原色滤镜（tricolor separation filters）。过了一段时间以后，我听说柯达生产一些闪光灯，于是我就是用它们。那时候，红外闪光灯还不存在。在我拍摄这些照片过后，星霸（Sunpak）
才开始生产这类闪光灯。
荒木：所以他们现在开始生产这类闪光灯了？
吉行：是的。其实每个人都可以拍出这样的照片来。
荒木：喔！我以后绝不会在那样黑暗的环境里做爱了。那些被你拍摄的人们在整个拍摄过程中都完全没有意识到你的存在吗？我从未使用过那样的设备，所以我真的好奇。
吉行：闪光灯闪出的是红色的光。我最好还是别往下说了（大笑）。
荒木：就像一辆路过的汽车尾灯，从效果上来看？
吉行：没错！毕竟，他们那么投入，即使大量的光都不会打扰他们的。
荒木：让我们来看看这些照片。Yeah，它们那么神奇！因为他们是真的在做爱。看他正在给她XX！你得有相当的胆量来拍摄这些。而我的照片则是伪纪实，一切都是摆拍的（大笑）。最近时间有一个好事的女人，在新宿御苑，比如，女上位。
吉行：有时候我也关注。但是我不会再拍摄这样的照片了。如果这个家伙在下面，他就会发现照相机。
荒木：来看这张！
吉行：这是也真实的。这家伙显得有点绝望。他硬不起来了。这种氛围让他有点自卑，我猜。我就在他们旁边，听到他说想表现好点。但是然后他说不太好（大笑）。
荒木：关于这些照片的精彩还在于它们展现了偷窥者自己。这是自拍肖像。可以看到你的影子。我真的喜欢这张。这种情况下谈论所谓摄影理论可能显得滑稽，但是这就是一副摄影作品应该成为的样子。哦，看呐，一个偷窥的家伙正在抚摸她。他在帮助她。拍到这样的照片很难吧？
吉行：还好，的确拍到偷窥者更难一些。但是在那种情况下，不会有谁会想到他们会被拍到。我有一个非常小带闪光灯的照相机。我想现在要做到那些恐怕不可能了。
荒木：但是你可以公开地做呀，是么？逮着一个家伙就用闪光灯拍，然后跑掉。
吉行：我猜可以吧。也许只能那样了。
荒木：那么你将得到不同的反应。也许那些偷窥者们会比那些沉迷于欢愉的男女们表现出更大的惶恐，然后开始追你。然后你还可以拍摄他们的反应。
吉行：也许如果我应该拍摄连续的照片。我好奇如果我对他们喊出声音来会发生什么，然后使用闪光灯拍摄。
荒木：这是一个超级棒的想法。我所做的就是在晚上使用小型闪光灯拍摄照片，然后宣布“这些是色情照片！”，当你只有几秒钟拍摄的时候，这真的有趣，然后那些反应应该也是非常确定的。
吉行：是的，很有趣。
荒木：也许今年夏天每个人都会干这件事了，如果星霸开始推广他们的红外闪光灯附件。
吉行：我听说在我的展览过后，这家公司接受了很多这方面的询问。
荒木：呃，哦！
吉行：是的，我不能再继续拍摄我的作品了（大笑）。
荒木：你的意思是说，在你拍过这些照片后，没人会步你的后尘了？
吉行：不会有了。
荒木：喔！也许你是一个忍者。
吉行：开发星霸红外闪光灯系统的家伙真是一个好色的家伙啊，好有趣。
荒木：真的？他一定有丰富的野战经验吧。
吉行：是吧，我猜那就是这想法产生的源头。
荒木：色狼们恐怕是二十一世纪唯一的希望了。只有色狼能产生好想法。只有色狼拍摄好照片。你也一样，对吧？
吉行：我觉得我非常普通，但是我认为每个人身上都有一点色狼品质。
荒木：我想这是一个程度的问题。我对这个主题着迷。我喜欢大腿张开的姿势。
吉行：我觉得她是一名学生——真的很可爱。其他人都挺无耻的。他们在攫取。
荒木：你的意思是？
吉行：一旦一对情侣走过来，然后在地上铺上一块布。我猜，“他们就要干那个了，”然后他们开始做爱。那家伙把裤子褪到膝盖。他们多数采用传教士体位，或者站立的姿势。在所有人离开公园以后，他们在雨中缠绵。
荒木：那是他们的选择！
吉行：没错。那时候他们身边就没人了。
荒木：为什么他们去公园做爱？他们没在别的地方尝试过吗？
吉行：我也不知道为什么。即使在那地方姑娘未必会体会做爱的甜美，那家伙可能会说，“我们就在这做吧。”也许他们是刚刚在附近喝多了或是别的原因。但是只有情侣们才会选择在公园做爱。你总能碰到他们，他们走路很快。
荒木：真的？于是你就站在公园入口处观察。然后你看到一对步履急促的情侣，于是你就意识到你能拍到一些那样的照片了？
吉行：没错，那就是我要寻找的。
荒木：我不是一个偷窥者，但是有一次在新宿车站，我认出一对情侣是要去情人旅馆（一种按小时收费的旅馆）。你看我的预感通常都是正确的。
吉行：我从未见过在公园里没做爱的情侣。前戏格外的长，偷窥者们会聚集在周围，时机则溜掉了。他们至少有过一次性爱。即使女方不太喜欢，那些家伙仍然要做的。我曾偶然听到过他们的谈话。
荒木：我有时候很喜欢观察。我们可以组织一次观光旅行。我们搞一个大规模的观光团吧，你来当向导。你能想象一帮摄影师挤在一个小公园的样子吗（大笑）？
吉行：一个摄影采风团。
荒木：没错。我们的观光团长一举起他的小旗子，所有闪光灯一齐闪（大笑）。惊慌的拍摄对象会盯住我们的，而我们也要拍摄他们那时的样子。有一次我和一个朋友从一个小面包车中，一起拍摄轿车里做爱的一对情侣。当闪光灯第一次闪光，他们就吓晕了。然后你可以再拍一张。所以这次我们可以每人使用两个闪光灯，不用红外线的，抓到瞬间就跑。我们跑掉或者我们也可以带上自己的保镖，谁怕他们。
吉行：你不能吓唬他们。你可以拍摄他们，但是法律……
荒木：那么拍摄他们是不合法的？
吉行：不，只要你不出声。如果你保持安静，拍完照片就跑，也没问题。
荒木：真的吗？听起来倒像犯罪哦。你知道，你可以拿这些照片敲诈他们啊。
吉行：的确。
荒木：那么我们来弄这件事吧，怎么样？今年夏天，搞一件大新闻。浪费机会可耻哟。
吉行：今年夏天，好！
荒木：对，对，大伙小心哦，吉行耕平来了哟（大笑）。
原载于 Weekend Super 1979 年9月号
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翻译如有谬误，请不吝指出！先谢过！
本文设置为仅友邻可见，请勿转载，谢谢合作！
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感谢朱焰同学帮忙翻墙！
原文地址：http://www.americansuburbx.com/2009/03/interview-nobuyoshi-araki-in.html
（可能需要翻墙）
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以下为原文：
INTERVIEW: "Nobuyoshi Araki In Conversation With Kohei Yoshiyuki (1979)"
Nobuyoshi Araki In Conversation With Kohei Yoshiyuki
NOBUYOSHI ARAKI: I don't know you that well. I know who you are, but readers don't know much about you. Why don't you tell them about yourself? I'm sure they would like to know when you were born, for instance. How old are you? What interests you? What kind of work are you doing? I'll bet you're not in your twenties.
KOHEI YOSHIYUKI: I was born in 1946.
NA: As the genius of photography, I'd like to introduce Yoshiyuki Kohei to our readers. You created a huge sensation by taking voyeuristic photographs of people having sex, and of voyeurs - peepers - watching people having sex, with infrared film. A lot of people made a lot of noise about them, but my critique consisted of exactly one line: "These are what I call photographs" (laughter). After that we met and chatted now and then, but I haven't seen you for quite a while. Recently I received an invitation to your solo show. I couldn't go because I was busy, but I mentioned it to the editor of Weekend Super, and heard later that he went to see it. When I asked him about it, he said he liked the way the photographs were exhibited.
KY: I turned out all the lights in the space, and gave each visitor a flashlight. That way I was reconstructing the original settings. I also blew the photos up to life size.
NA: You recreated the original settings. I didn't get to the exhibition, so I don't know exactly what you mean. Viewers went into a dark room with a flashlight and looked at the photographs? But that way, you can only see part of them.
KY: Yes, that's how I wanted them to be viewed. I wanted people to look at the bodies in the photographs an inch at a time. But this is an uneasy situation. When it's completely dark, the whole photograph is illuminated, but the viewer looks at it section by section. My original concept involved a corridor where points of light would be focused on the photographs. Viewers would look at them slowly ... carefully.
NA: I see what you mean.
KY: They might even touch the photos. That's how I wanted to exhibit them. But then I realized that viewers would suffer if I forced them to look at the photographs in that way. So, that time I just used a board as a partition in the middle of the space.
NA: I didn't see the photographs, but that sounds interesting. And I think people could see what you were aiming for. But you're focusing too much on how you show them. Five years ago, you wanted to exhibit them in a certain way, and the idea implanted itself in your brain until it became sort of an obsession. It's like coming into some money and deciding to buy a nice gift for a girl you had a crush on long ago.
KY: Yeah, I guess you could say that.
NA: And it's how you'd feel when the girl said, "Oh no, nobody does that anymore," isn't it?
KY: In a way.
NA: The photographs are definitely good, so maybe you should have exhibited them more straightforwardly. They are powerful enough to thrill anyone who comes to see them. The type of exhibition you're talking about reminds me of a woman trapped in a bad relationship.
KY: I really enjoyed watching people looking at the photographs. Since the points of light were also their lines of sight, I saw things that were totally unexpected.
NA: That kind of thing was the mainstream in contemporary art not too long ago. If you asked me, I'd say go back to simple ways of exhibiting photographs. I'd tell fine artists to return to oil paintings and photographers to return to photographs.
KY: But your activities have a conceptual aspect to them.
NA: Yes, but when you exhibit photographs, you have to do it with conviction. And I heard you didn't issue many invitations. That was a bad idea. It's a shame you didn't make a really spectacular gesture.
KY: I'm a coward.
NA: Cowards don't go around spying on people and photographing them having sex. What was your motivation?
KY: It had never occurred to me to take that kind of photograph. I knew about peeping, though, and then one day I stumbled onto a scene - an incredible scene (laughter). That was when I was still an amateur. At that time, there weren't many skyscrapers in front of Chuo Park in Shinjuku. There was a model apartment in one of them. I was walking behind it with a friend (we had just finished a shoot), when we saw something amazing!
NA: "Something." I like your choice of words.
KY: Yes! I was shocked. They were actually fucking.
NA: They were?
KY: Yes. When I saw them, I knew this was something I had to photograph.
NA: You didn't right then?
KY: I had my camera, but it was dark. After that I did some research. I found out that Toshiba made flashbulbs - infrared flashbulbs. Before I had a chance to use more than a few of them, they were discontinued. Then I looked around for filters, and ended up using two tricolor separation filters. After a while I heard that Kodak had some flashbulbs, so I used them. At that time, infrared flash units didn't exist. Sunpak came out with them after I took these photos.
NA: So they're making them now?
KY: Yes. Anybody can take photographs like these.
NA: Wow! Guess I won't be able to have sex in dark places anymore. Are the people you photograph totally unaware of what's going on? I've never used equipment like that, so I have no idea.
KY: The light flashes - a red light. I'd better not say any more (laughter).
NA: Like the lights on a passing car, from the subjects' point of view?
KY: That's right. Anyway, they're so engrossed in what they're doing that even a lot of light shouldn't faze them.
NA: Let's have a look at the photos. Yeah, these are amazing! Because they're really fucking. Look at him giving it to her! You need a lot of nerve to take photographs like these. Mine are so pseudo-documentaries, so everything is staged (laughter). These days it's the women who are aggressive. At Shinjuku Gyoen, for instance, the women are on top.
KY: I saw that sometimes, too. But I can't photograph that. If the guy's on the bottom, he'll notice the camera.
NA: Look at this one!
KY: This is the real thing, too. But the guy was hopeless. He couldn't get it up. The ambience made him self-conscious, I guess. I was right near them, listening and thinking he'd get it together. But then he said, "It's no good" (laughter).
NA: The wonderful thing about this photograph is that it shows the peeper. It's a self-portrait. It shows your shadow. I really like that. It's probably strange to talk about photography theory in a context like this, but this is what a photograph is supposed to be. Oh, look, the peeper is touching her. He's assisting. Wasn't it hard to shoot these photographs?
KY: Well, it's harder to photograph the peepers. But at that time, nobody ever dreamed they'd be photographed. I had a tiny camera with a flash attachment. I think it would be almost impossible to do that now.
NA: But you could do it openly, couldn't you? Just grab one shot with your flash, and then run.
KY: I guess so. Maybe that's the way to do it.
NA: Then you get different reactions. Maybe the peepers would be more upset at you than the couples for spoiling their fun, and start chasing you. Then you'd photograph their reaction.
KY: Maybe if I took sequential photographs. Wonder what would happen if I yelled out to them while they're doing it, then took a flash photo.
NA: That's an excellent idea. What I've been doing is taking photographs at night with a small flash, declaring, "These lightscapes are obscene!" It's fun when you have only seconds to get a shot, and the reaction is very clear.
KY: Yes, it is fun.
NA: Maybe everybody will be doing it this summer, once word about the Sunpak flash-unit spreads.
KY: I heard the company got a lot of inquiries after my show.
NA: Uh, oh!
KY: Yeah. I won't be able to do my work (laughter).
NA: You mean nobody has ever come after you when you took photos like this?
KY: Never.
NA: Wow! Maybe you're a Ninja.
KY: The guy who developed the Sunpak infrared strobe is a real lecher and a lot of fun.
NA: Really? He must have done a lot of fieldwork.
KY: Yes. I guess that's where the idea came from.
NA: Lechers are the only hope for the twenty-first century. Only lechers come up with good ideas. Only lechers take good photos. So are you one, too?
KY: I think I'm completely ordinary, but I think there's a little lecher in everyone.
NA: I guess it's a matter of degree. I am fascinated by this topic. I like the way the legs are open here.
KY: I think she was a student - really cute. Others are much more outrageous. They get carried away.
NA: What do you mean?
KY: Once a couple walked over and laid a piece of cloth on the ground. I thought, "They're going to do it," and then they started fucking. The guy pulled his pants down to his knees. But most of them do it in the missionary position. Or standing up. They do it in the rain, after everyone else has left the park.
NA: That's their chance!
KY: Right. There's nobody around then.
NA: Why do they go to the park to fuck? Have they done it everywhere else already?
KY: I don't think that's why. Even if the girl isn't thrilled about having sex there, the guy might say, "Let's do it here." Maybe they've been drinking nearby or something. But only couples who've had sex before fuck in a park. You can always spot them because they walk fast.
NA: Really? So you stand at the entrance watching. Then you see a couple walking fast, so you know you'll get some shots?
KY: That's definitely what I look for.
NA: I'm not a peeper, but I once tried to spot couples headed for love hotels [hotels that charge by the hour] at Shinjuku Station. My hunches were usually right. You can tell.
KY: I've never seen a couple who aren't already having sex fuck in a park. Foreplay takes too long, and the peepers will gather around, and the opportunity is gone. They have to have had sex at least once. Even if the girl doesn't feel like it, guys want to do it in the park. I've overheard their conversations.
NA: I'd like to observe sometime. We could organize a tour. Let's do a grand tour, with you as the guide. Can you imagine a bunch of photographers filing into a park (laughter)?
KY: A photo session.
NA: Right. Once our tour leader raises his flag, the flashes will go off all at once (laughter). The surprised subjects will stare at us, and we'll photograph that, too. A colleague and I once shot a couple having sex in a car, from a microbus. When the first flash goes off, they're stunned. Then you take another shot.
So this time we'll each use two flash units, not infrared, grab our shots and run away. We'll run away, or we could bring our own bodyguards, who'll scare them.
KY: You can't threaten people. You can photograph them, but the law ...
NA: So photographing them isn't illegal?
KY: No, as long as you don't say anything. If you keep quiet, take your photos and run, it's okay.
NA: Really? It sounds almost criminal. You know, you could blackmail people with the photos.
KY: That's true.
NA: So, let's do this, all right? This summer, and make a big event of it. It'd be a shame to waste the opportunity.
KY: This summer, then!
NA: Yes, yes. Watch out, everybody. Yoshiyuki is coming (laughter).
From the September 1979 issue of Weekend Super
荒木经惟：我对你不太了解，当然我知道你，然而读者们对你也不太了解。那么你不妨自我介绍一下吧？比如，他们肯定都想知道你出生在哪一年，你多大岁数，你对什么感兴趣，你拍摄什么样的作品？我打赌你不是只有20岁吧。
吉行耕平：我出生于1946年。
荒木：作为一名摄影天才，我很高兴向读者们介绍吉行耕平。通过使用红外胶片，你拍摄了大量的性爱偷窥照片，引起了巨大的轰动。对此，很多人提出批评，但是我的批评是基于这样一条准线的：“这就是我称之为摄影的东西”（大笑）。自那以后，我们有几次见面和交谈，不过我也好久没见过你了。最近我收到了你的个展邀请函。我没去只是因为我太忙了，但是我对Weekend Super杂志的编辑谈及过此事，然后得知他去参观过你的个展。我向他询问，他说他很喜欢展出的方式和效果。
吉行：我把展厅的灯光都关掉了，然后发给每位参观者一个手电筒。这样的方式是重建拍摄场景的效果。同时我把每张照片都放大到真人尺寸。
荒木：你重新营造了原始拍摄场景的效果。我没去展览现场，所以我也没法准确体会你所说的那样的设置。观众们手持手电筒进入到一个黑漆漆的房间然后通过手电筒观看照片？如果是这样的方式，只能看到照片的局部吧。
吉行：是的，那就是我想要实现的参观体验。我想要观众们在观看照片里人们身体的时候一次只能看到一部分。当然这是一种并不太舒服的观看体验。在一个全黑的空间里，照片被照亮，但是是一部分一部分的照亮并被观众看到。我的原创想法就是这样一个通道——当光束投射到照片上形成一个通道。观众们观看的时候是缓慢而仔细的。
荒木：我明白你的意思了。
吉行：他们甚至可以触摸照片。这也是我想要展览实现的效果。但是然后我就意识到了，观众由于我的原因被迫以这样的方式观看照片。所以，那次我就在展览空间中间放置一块板以起到隔离的作用。
荒木：我没看到照片，但是听起来真的有趣呢。我想观众们会看到你所瞄准的东西。但是你的展示方式被过多的关注了。5年前，你曾想以某种方式展出它们，这一想法在你大脑中产生以后直到它变成某种必须实现的冲动。就像你一直想给一个姑娘买一件礼物，然后一旦你有了钱你就决定去办一样。
吉行：对，我觉得你可以那么讲。
荒木：然后你的感觉就是，当那姑娘说“哦不，不会有谁那么做了，”是不是？
吉行：某种程度上。
荒木：这些照片无疑是很棒的，也许你应该以更直接的方式展出它们。对于前来观看的人来说，它们是那么的有力量。你刚才谈及的展出方式让我想起了一种困于糟糕关系中的女人。
吉行：对于观众们观看照片的样子，我真的很享受。手电光线的聚焦也是他们视觉的聚焦，我关注那些完全意外的东西。
荒木：那种东西是不久以前当代艺术中出现的意识流。如果你问我的看法，我倾向于回归以简单的方式展示照片。我会告诉艺术家们回归油画的原始方式，告诉摄影师们回归摄影的原始方式。
吉行：但是你的做法对他们来说已经是一个观念性的指向了。
荒木：是的，但是当你展示你的照片的时候，你必须以最确凿的方式。我听说你拒绝许多邀请。这样不太好。你不去摆出一个自信的姿态来，这样多可耻。
吉行：我是一个胆小鬼。
荒木：胆小鬼不会去到公园里闲逛并且拍下人们性爱的照片来的。你的动机是什么呢？
吉行：我从未想过能拍下那样的照片来。我知道偷窥是什么，虽然有一次我弄出了点乱子——在一个难以置信的场景里（大笑）。那时候我还是个业余爱好者。那时候，在新宿的中央公园前还没有那么多摩天大楼。那里边有一个公寓模型。我正走在我的一个朋友身后（我们刚刚完成拍摄工作后），这时候我们见到了一些令人惊讶的东西！
荒木：“一些东西”，我喜欢你的表述方式。
吉行：是的！我当时错愕了。他们真的在做爱。
荒木：他们真的在干？
吉行：是的。当我看到他们时，我意识到了我必须把他们拍下来。
荒木：你当时没拍？
吉行：我带照相机了，但是那实在太暗了。那以后我开始做了一些研究。我发现东芝生产一种闪光灯——红外线闪光灯。在我打算更多的实践的时候，它们断货了。然后我去寻找滤镜，最后决定使用两个三原色滤镜（tricolor separation filters）。过了一段时间以后，我听说柯达生产一些闪光灯，于是我就是用它们。那时候，红外闪光灯还不存在。在我拍摄这些照片过后，星霸（Sunpak）
才开始生产这类闪光灯。
荒木：所以他们现在开始生产这类闪光灯了？
吉行：是的。其实每个人都可以拍出这样的照片来。
荒木：喔！我以后绝不会在那样黑暗的环境里做爱了。那些被你拍摄的人们在整个拍摄过程中都完全没有意识到你的存在吗？我从未使用过那样的设备，所以我真的好奇。
吉行：闪光灯闪出的是红色的光。我最好还是别往下说了（大笑）。
荒木：就像一辆路过的汽车尾灯，从效果上来看？
吉行：没错！毕竟，他们那么投入，即使大量的光都不会打扰他们的。
荒木：让我们来看看这些照片。Yeah，它们那么神奇！因为他们是真的在做爱。看他正在给她XX！你得有相当的胆量来拍摄这些。而我的照片则是伪纪实，一切都是摆拍的（大笑）。最近时间有一个好事的女人，在新宿御苑，比如，女上位。
吉行：有时候我也关注。但是我不会再拍摄这样的照片了。如果这个家伙在下面，他就会发现照相机。
荒木：来看这张！
吉行：这是也真实的。这家伙显得有点绝望。他硬不起来了。这种氛围让他有点自卑，我猜。我就在他们旁边，听到他说想表现好点。但是然后他说不太好（大笑）。
荒木：关于这些照片的精彩还在于它们展现了偷窥者自己。这是自拍肖像。可以看到你的影子。我真的喜欢这张。这种情况下谈论所谓摄影理论可能显得滑稽，但是这就是一副摄影作品应该成为的样子。哦，看呐，一个偷窥的家伙正在抚摸她。他在帮助她。拍到这样的照片很难吧？
吉行：还好，的确拍到偷窥者更难一些。但是在那种情况下，不会有谁会想到他们会被拍到。我有一个非常小带闪光灯的照相机。我想现在要做到那些恐怕不可能了。
荒木：但是你可以公开地做呀，是么？逮着一个家伙就用闪光灯拍，然后跑掉。
吉行：我猜可以吧。也许只能那样了。
荒木：那么你将得到不同的反应。也许那些偷窥者们会比那些沉迷于欢愉的男女们表现出更大的惶恐，然后开始追你。然后你还可以拍摄他们的反应。
吉行：也许如果我应该拍摄连续的照片。我好奇如果我对他们喊出声音来会发生什么，然后使用闪光灯拍摄。
荒木：这是一个超级棒的想法。我所做的就是在晚上使用小型闪光灯拍摄照片，然后宣布“这些是色情照片！”，当你只有几秒钟拍摄的时候，这真的有趣，然后那些反应应该也是非常确定的。
吉行：是的，很有趣。
荒木：也许今年夏天每个人都会干这件事了，如果星霸开始推广他们的红外闪光灯附件。
吉行：我听说在我的展览过后，这家公司接受了很多这方面的询问。
荒木：呃，哦！
吉行：是的，我不能再继续拍摄我的作品了（大笑）。
荒木：你的意思是说，在你拍过这些照片后，没人会步你的后尘了？
吉行：不会有了。
荒木：喔！也许你是一个忍者。
吉行：开发星霸红外闪光灯系统的家伙真是一个好色的家伙啊，好有趣。
荒木：真的？他一定有丰富的野战经验吧。
吉行：是吧，我猜那就是这想法产生的源头。
荒木：色狼们恐怕是二十一世纪唯一的希望了。只有色狼能产生好想法。只有色狼拍摄好照片。你也一样，对吧？
吉行：我觉得我非常普通，但是我认为每个人身上都有一点色狼品质。
荒木：我想这是一个程度的问题。我对这个主题着迷。我喜欢大腿张开的姿势。
吉行：我觉得她是一名学生——真的很可爱。其他人都挺无耻的。他们在攫取。
荒木：你的意思是？
吉行：一旦一对情侣走过来，然后在地上铺上一块布。我猜，“他们就要干那个了，”然后他们开始做爱。那家伙把裤子褪到膝盖。他们多数采用传教士体位，或者站立的姿势。在所有人离开公园以后，他们在雨中缠绵。
荒木：那是他们的选择！
吉行：没错。那时候他们身边就没人了。
荒木：为什么他们去公园做爱？他们没在别的地方尝试过吗？
吉行：我也不知道为什么。即使在那地方姑娘未必会体会做爱的甜美，那家伙可能会说，“我们就在这做吧。”也许他们是刚刚在附近喝多了或是别的原因。但是只有情侣们才会选择在公园做爱。你总能碰到他们，他们走路很快。
荒木：真的？于是你就站在公园入口处观察。然后你看到一对步履急促的情侣，于是你就意识到你能拍到一些那样的照片了？
吉行：没错，那就是我要寻找的。
荒木：我不是一个偷窥者，但是有一次在新宿车站，我认出一对情侣是要去情人旅馆（一种按小时收费的旅馆）。你看我的预感通常都是正确的。
吉行：我从未见过在公园里没做爱的情侣。前戏格外的长，偷窥者们会聚集在周围，时机则溜掉了。他们至少有过一次性爱。即使女方不太喜欢，那些家伙仍然要做的。我曾偶然听到过他们的谈话。
荒木：我有时候很喜欢观察。我们可以组织一次观光旅行。我们搞一个大规模的观光团吧，你来当向导。你能想象一帮摄影师挤在一个小公园的样子吗（大笑）？
吉行：一个摄影采风团。
荒木：没错。我们的观光团长一举起他的小旗子，所有闪光灯一齐闪（大笑）。惊慌的拍摄对象会盯住我们的，而我们也要拍摄他们那时的样子。有一次我和一个朋友从一个小面包车中，一起拍摄轿车里做爱的一对情侣。当闪光灯第一次闪光，他们就吓晕了。然后你可以再拍一张。所以这次我们可以每人使用两个闪光灯，不用红外线的，抓到瞬间就跑。我们跑掉或者我们也可以带上自己的保镖，谁怕他们。
吉行：你不能吓唬他们。你可以拍摄他们，但是法律……
荒木：那么拍摄他们是不合法的？
吉行：不，只要你不出声。如果你保持安静，拍完照片就跑，也没问题。
荒木：真的吗？听起来倒像犯罪哦。你知道，你可以拿这些照片敲诈他们啊。
吉行：的确。
荒木：那么我们来弄这件事吧，怎么样？今年夏天，搞一件大新闻。浪费机会可耻哟。
吉行：今年夏天，好！
荒木：对，对，大伙小心哦，吉行耕平来了哟（大笑）。
原载于 Weekend Super 1979 年9月号
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翻译如有谬误，请不吝指出！先谢过！
本文设置为仅友邻可见，请勿转载，谢谢合作！
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感谢朱焰同学帮忙翻墙！
原文地址：http://www.americansuburbx.com/2009/03/interview-nobuyoshi-araki-in.html
（可能需要翻墙）
====================================
以下为原文：
INTERVIEW: "Nobuyoshi Araki In Conversation With Kohei Yoshiyuki (1979)"
Nobuyoshi Araki In Conversation With Kohei Yoshiyuki
NOBUYOSHI ARAKI: I don't know you that well. I know who you are, but readers don't know much about you. Why don't you tell them about yourself? I'm sure they would like to know when you were born, for instance. How old are you? What interests you? What kind of work are you doing? I'll bet you're not in your twenties.
KOHEI YOSHIYUKI: I was born in 1946.
NA: As the genius of photography, I'd like to introduce Yoshiyuki Kohei to our readers. You created a huge sensation by taking voyeuristic photographs of people having sex, and of voyeurs - peepers - watching people having sex, with infrared film. A lot of people made a lot of noise about them, but my critique consisted of exactly one line: "These are what I call photographs" (laughter). After that we met and chatted now and then, but I haven't seen you for quite a while. Recently I received an invitation to your solo show. I couldn't go because I was busy, but I mentioned it to the editor of Weekend Super, and heard later that he went to see it. When I asked him about it, he said he liked the way the photographs were exhibited.
KY: I turned out all the lights in the space, and gave each visitor a flashlight. That way I was reconstructing the original settings. I also blew the photos up to life size.
NA: You recreated the original settings. I didn't get to the exhibition, so I don't know exactly what you mean. Viewers went into a dark room with a flashlight and looked at the photographs? But that way, you can only see part of them.
KY: Yes, that's how I wanted them to be viewed. I wanted people to look at the bodies in the photographs an inch at a time. But this is an uneasy situation. When it's completely dark, the whole photograph is illuminated, but the viewer looks at it section by section. My original concept involved a corridor where points of light would be focused on the photographs. Viewers would look at them slowly ... carefully.
NA: I see what you mean.
KY: They might even touch the photos. That's how I wanted to exhibit them. But then I realized that viewers would suffer if I forced them to look at the photographs in that way. So, that time I just used a board as a partition in the middle of the space.
NA: I didn't see the photographs, but that sounds interesting. And I think people could see what you were aiming for. But you're focusing too much on how you show them. Five years ago, you wanted to exhibit them in a certain way, and the idea implanted itself in your brain until it became sort of an obsession. It's like coming into some money and deciding to buy a nice gift for a girl you had a crush on long ago.
KY: Yeah, I guess you could say that.
NA: And it's how you'd feel when the girl said, "Oh no, nobody does that anymore," isn't it?
KY: In a way.
NA: The photographs are definitely good, so maybe you should have exhibited them more straightforwardly. They are powerful enough to thrill anyone who comes to see them. The type of exhibition you're talking about reminds me of a woman trapped in a bad relationship.
KY: I really enjoyed watching people looking at the photographs. Since the points of light were also their lines of sight, I saw things that were totally unexpected.
NA: That kind of thing was the mainstream in contemporary art not too long ago. If you asked me, I'd say go back to simple ways of exhibiting photographs. I'd tell fine artists to return to oil paintings and photographers to return to photographs.
KY: But your activities have a conceptual aspect to them.
NA: Yes, but when you exhibit photographs, you have to do it with conviction. And I heard you didn't issue many invitations. That was a bad idea. It's a shame you didn't make a really spectacular gesture.
KY: I'm a coward.
NA: Cowards don't go around spying on people and photographing them having sex. What was your motivation?
KY: It had never occurred to me to take that kind of photograph. I knew about peeping, though, and then one day I stumbled onto a scene - an incredible scene (laughter). That was when I was still an amateur. At that time, there weren't many skyscrapers in front of Chuo Park in Shinjuku. There was a model apartment in one of them. I was walking behind it with a friend (we had just finished a shoot), when we saw something amazing!
NA: "Something." I like your choice of words.
KY: Yes! I was shocked. They were actually fucking.
NA: They were?
KY: Yes. When I saw them, I knew this was something I had to photograph.
NA: You didn't right then?
KY: I had my camera, but it was dark. After that I did some research. I found out that Toshiba made flashbulbs - infrared flashbulbs. Before I had a chance to use more than a few of them, they were discontinued. Then I looked around for filters, and ended up using two tricolor separation filters. After a while I heard that Kodak had some flashbulbs, so I used them. At that time, infrared flash units didn't exist. Sunpak came out with them after I took these photos.
NA: So they're making them now?
KY: Yes. Anybody can take photographs like these.
NA: Wow! Guess I won't be able to have sex in dark places anymore. Are the people you photograph totally unaware of what's going on? I've never used equipment like that, so I have no idea.
KY: The light flashes - a red light. I'd better not say any more (laughter).
NA: Like the lights on a passing car, from the subjects' point of view?
KY: That's right. Anyway, they're so engrossed in what they're doing that even a lot of light shouldn't faze them.
NA: Let's have a look at the photos. Yeah, these are amazing! Because they're really fucking. Look at him giving it to her! You need a lot of nerve to take photographs like these. Mine are so pseudo-documentaries, so everything is staged (laughter). These days it's the women who are aggressive. At Shinjuku Gyoen, for instance, the women are on top.
KY: I saw that sometimes, too. But I can't photograph that. If the guy's on the bottom, he'll notice the camera.
NA: Look at this one!
KY: This is the real thing, too. But the guy was hopeless. He couldn't get it up. The ambience made him self-conscious, I guess. I was right near them, listening and thinking he'd get it together. But then he said, "It's no good" (laughter).
NA: The wonderful thing about this photograph is that it shows the peeper. It's a self-portrait. It shows your shadow. I really like that. It's probably strange to talk about photography theory in a context like this, but this is what a photograph is supposed to be. Oh, look, the peeper is touching her. He's assisting. Wasn't it hard to shoot these photographs?
KY: Well, it's harder to photograph the peepers. But at that time, nobody ever dreamed they'd be photographed. I had a tiny camera with a flash attachment. I think it would be almost impossible to do that now.
NA: But you could do it openly, couldn't you? Just grab one shot with your flash, and then run.
KY: I guess so. Maybe that's the way to do it.
NA: Then you get different reactions. Maybe the peepers would be more upset at you than the couples for spoiling their fun, and start chasing you. Then you'd photograph their reaction.
KY: Maybe if I took sequential photographs. Wonder what would happen if I yelled out to them while they're doing it, then took a flash photo.
NA: That's an excellent idea. What I've been doing is taking photographs at night with a small flash, declaring, "These lightscapes are obscene!" It's fun when you have only seconds to get a shot, and the reaction is very clear.
KY: Yes, it is fun.
NA: Maybe everybody will be doing it this summer, once word about the Sunpak flash-unit spreads.
KY: I heard the company got a lot of inquiries after my show.
NA: Uh, oh!
KY: Yeah. I won't be able to do my work (laughter).
NA: You mean nobody has ever come after you when you took photos like this?
KY: Never.
NA: Wow! Maybe you're a Ninja.
KY: The guy who developed the Sunpak infrared strobe is a real lecher and a lot of fun.
NA: Really? He must have done a lot of fieldwork.
KY: Yes. I guess that's where the idea came from.
NA: Lechers are the only hope for the twenty-first century. Only lechers come up with good ideas. Only lechers take good photos. So are you one, too?
KY: I think I'm completely ordinary, but I think there's a little lecher in everyone.
NA: I guess it's a matter of degree. I am fascinated by this topic. I like the way the legs are open here.
KY: I think she was a student - really cute. Others are much more outrageous. They get carried away.
NA: What do you mean?
KY: Once a couple walked over and laid a piece of cloth on the ground. I thought, "They're going to do it," and then they started fucking. The guy pulled his pants down to his knees. But most of them do it in the missionary position. Or standing up. They do it in the rain, after everyone else has left the park.
NA: That's their chance!
KY: Right. There's nobody around then.
NA: Why do they go to the park to fuck? Have they done it everywhere else already?
KY: I don't think that's why. Even if the girl isn't thrilled about having sex there, the guy might say, "Let's do it here." Maybe they've been drinking nearby or something. But only couples who've had sex before fuck in a park. You can always spot them because they walk fast.
NA: Really? So you stand at the entrance watching. Then you see a couple walking fast, so you know you'll get some shots?
KY: That's definitely what I look for.
NA: I'm not a peeper, but I once tried to spot couples headed for love hotels [hotels that charge by the hour] at Shinjuku Station. My hunches were usually right. You can tell.
KY: I've never seen a couple who aren't already having sex fuck in a park. Foreplay takes too long, and the peepers will gather around, and the opportunity is gone. They have to have had sex at least once. Even if the girl doesn't feel like it, guys want to do it in the park. I've overheard their conversations.
NA: I'd like to observe sometime. We could organize a tour. Let's do a grand tour, with you as the guide. Can you imagine a bunch of photographers filing into a park (laughter)?
KY: A photo session.
NA: Right. Once our tour leader raises his flag, the flashes will go off all at once (laughter). The surprised subjects will stare at us, and we'll photograph that, too. A colleague and I once shot a couple having sex in a car, from a microbus. When the first flash goes off, they're stunned. Then you take another shot.
So this time we'll each use two flash units, not infrared, grab our shots and run away. We'll run away, or we could bring our own bodyguards, who'll scare them.
KY: You can't threaten people. You can photograph them, but the law ...
NA: So photographing them isn't illegal?
KY: No, as long as you don't say anything. If you keep quiet, take your photos and run, it's okay.
NA: Really? It sounds almost criminal. You know, you could blackmail people with the photos.
KY: That's true.
NA: So, let's do this, all right? This summer, and make a big event of it. It'd be a shame to waste the opportunity.
KY: This summer, then!
NA: Yes, yes. Watch out, everybody. Yoshiyuki is coming (laughter).
From the September 1979 issue of Weekend Super
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